Attorneys handling arbitration claims for the National Arbitration Forum, (NAF) Minneapolis, MN may find the fee being paid is not worth the potential negative publicity that could follow.
Attorneys and Judges who decide arbitration claims for the NAF are paid an average fee of $250/hour with the understanding they handle six claims per hour. The forum’s largest customer base are comprised of debt collection agency’s and law firms who purchase defaulted consumer debts for pennies on the dollar, then pay a fee of $250/per account for an arbitration hearing that the debtor never gets to participate in. The main problem raised by consumer advocates is that the forum is unfair in its policies, that consumers have no say in the outcome and that the attorneys and judges handling arbitration claims have found a lucrative income stream that allows them to handle as many claims as they desire in the comfort of heir homes or offices. Until now, they have been able to stay mostly under the radar of detection because their work went (for the most part) unnoticed and their identities and backgrounds were mostly shielded from those they ruled against.
All of that is about to change. A new organization has popped up and ready to expose what they call the corruption of arbitration and the ‘rubber-stamping’ of National Arbitration Forum claims by those they claim are seduced by the easy money. A group calling itself “Arbitration Justice for Consumers” has been quietly putting together a list of names of those who are getting paid by the NAF and has plans to publish the names, locations state bar numbers and other pertinent information of the arbitrators they claim are rubber stamping arbitration claims for the $250/hourly fee they earn.
The website will be used to call attention to what is perceived as a one sided system, where arbitration claims are awarded on more than 90% of the claims filed, with little or no scrutiny given to the records that are made, or not made available to make those decisions, including the fact that the consumers are party to an arbitration agreement. Attorneys who engage in arbitration claims for the National Arbitration Forum could see a hostile reaction from consumers who feel they were victims of a one sided process that rewards the claimants and arbitrators for a process where they were denied their rights. Another website “Give Me Back My Rights” www.givemebackmyrights.org is gaining strength with consumer advocates nationally and gathering stories about consumers being railroaded by alleged bogus arbitration claims. Many senior attorneys and retired judges may find the $250 fee they are collecting is not worth the negative publicity it could generate.
Arbitration Rip Off!
Consumers are being scammed by arbitration in unprecedented numbers by bottom feeder debt buyers. Most are from the Ntional Arbitration Forum (NAF), out of Minneapolis, MN. You can view their site at: http://WWW.ARBITRATION-FORUM.COM This is NOT a non profit or goverment site, it is a FOR profit operated by some very rich individuals whom are being paid by those who seek arb claims. Some of the biggest names who use and profit by the NAF include:
WOLPOFF & ABRAMSON, BALTIMORE, MD (largest profiter of claims) COLLECT AMERICA (CACH & CACV), DENVER, CO (2nd largest) BRONSON & MIGLIACCIO, BUFFALO, NY & ELMWOOD PARK, NJ NCO FINANCIAL, BALTIMORE, MD MOOORE, GERALD & ASSOC., ATLANTA, GA MRS ASSOCIATES, CHERRY HILL, NJ plus many more bottom feeders
It is an established fact in this country that when claims are submitted to arbitration there is a high (mid 90%) percentile file, where the consumer always loses. This is in spite of the fact that the vast majority are filed by debt buyers who do not have the requisite documentation that is called for in the NAF Code of Procedure. Orgnizations such as Wolpoff & Abramson, Credigy, Gerald E. Moore, CACH an others can usually get the arbitration claim ruled in their favor as ong as they supply ’some’ documents and of cours….pay the required fee. Those who pose as arbitrators, usually attorneys, retired judges, some looking for extra cash, are reportedly paid a $250/hourly rate to handle up six claims per hour. I have been aware of only one Houston attorney who kicked claims because the bottom feeders couldn’t prove up the debts in accordance with the rule, all the others apper to not pay attention to the manufactured documents and the fact that original cardholder agreements containing signatures are amost never included with their claims. My opinion is that $250/hour for rubber stamping must outweigh the rule of law. One CA arbitrator; Robert H. McMillan awarded W&A more than $330,000 on 22 claims in just one day, which (by my math) at $250/hr. made for one fine payday.
Comment by budhibbs — February 19, 2007 @ 11:00 am
Coming Soon: arbitrationjustice.com to expose those who violate the rule of law in favor of a quick buck.
Comment by budhibbs — February 19, 2007 @ 11:03 am
HELP INVESTIGATE THE NATIONAL ARBITRATION FORUM** (NAF)*
Have you had an award issued against you by the National Arbitration Forum,
on a debt you never owed to begin with, after objecting to the arbitration
to no avail? Or did you experience NAF favoritism toward credit card
companies, against debtors? Your experience could play an important role in
an ongoing investigation into the practices of the NAF.
This Give Me Back My Rights campaign (www.givemebackmyrights.org)
is gathering research. In particular, we are interested in speaking to
individuals who have personally experienced situations in which the NAF
has allegedly:
* entered an arbitration award against a person who was a victim of
identity theft, or mistaken identity,
* been dishonest to consumers, or
* broken its own rules or twisted its rules in another outrageous way.
If you have a story to tell, and might be willing to share your experience
with the media or testify in court, please visit http://www.givemebackmyrights.org
Please give a BRIEF description of your experience. We will forward the
information to the campaign, and you may or may not be contacted to follow
up. This is NOT an offer of legal representation; your story will be used
to help prove that the NAF is biased in favor of its corporate clients, and
hopefully to help others avoid arbitration before the NAF. Your information
will not be used without your consent.
Comment by budhibbs — February 19, 2007 @ 11:06 am
Wolpoff & Abramson is a bunch of big dumb turkeys! About five years ago, I received a judgment from them saying I had failed to pay a credit card bill from former MBNA. I had done my payments on a compromised basis since where I worked didn’t pay me very well. Well, those Wolpoff & Abramson turkeys sent me a judgment letter; I wrote to the NAF telling them my side of the story; the case was later closed with predjudice. I still continued to get letters from Wolpoff & Abramson. I lost my father a year ago; got a windfall from his mother’s estate so my debt to former MBNA was settled for a compromised amount along with the judgment being taken off my record.
Comment by Cheryl A. Keil — February 26, 2007 @ 11:05 pm
They sure a bunch of turkeys, Wolpoff & Abramson. May they go into the ditch like their favorite firm did, MBNA.
Comment by Cheryl A. Keil — February 26, 2007 @ 11:05 pm
Wolpoff & Abramson are still harrassing me about the Arbitration settlement.I never agreed to an arbitration, and it states in their handbook that it is the FIRST thing that has to happen to procede.Well, they did it without me.I gave them$6000 and now they are taking me to court.
They are literally killing me, I could get NO communication from them writing several letters.
A felon has rights, and the court appoints them an attorney, well I have absolutely noone.
If anyone can help me out and get this over before I really just die, feel free.
Comment by D Dueringer — March 19, 2007 @ 4:54 pm
I felt cheated by the NAF on 2 arbitrations (done at same time). W&A got the judgment on me for the 2 MBNA accounts. I wrote to dispute the arbitration as required and the NAF said since I did not send a copy also to MBNA that they grant W&A the judgment. Why would I of had to write MBNA, W&A said they were the attorneys assigned the case by MBNA? ( I sent certified copies to W&A and the NAF). I feel railroaded by NAF and unfair results. Now W&A have sued me in my county to affirm the judgment. I did write the written dispute to my county as required and have not heard anything yet, will I? Or it is again something just thrown through the system. I pray not. Yes, I am very sick over this and it is embrassing. MBNA raised my interest and payments because the credit bureau said I had too much credit out. Other credit card companies did the same, it was a domino effect. I had excellent credit and have the report from that time to prove it. Why is the government letting this happen to good consumers, turning them to bad at no choice. I from the beginning offered to pay as they original were and what I owed. I do not feel I owe their high mafia amounts.
Comment by Terry Borlace — March 21, 2007 @ 7:07 pm
I still have heard nothing from my county. Should I check on it or not? What can they actually do? Also I now have another CC lawyer threating arbitration. Should I respond or not? I would appreciate an answer from someone, if not please remove all my comments
Comment by Terry Borlace — May 9, 2007 @ 4:34 pm
I entered into a credit management program in August of 2006 due
to child-custody proceedings that brought about extensive legal
fees and debt. In January of 2007 I was contacted by my credit
management company, who told me that Wolpoff & Abramson has made a
settlement offer. We began negotiating the offer for me to pay
approximately $200 per month. In January of 2007, I was contacted
by Wolpoff & Abramson, who had someone serve paperwork (left at my
door step) with notification that a claim has been filed with the
NAF. Following this, the settlement offer was increased and
Wolpoff & Abramson refused to return calles and respond to emails
left to them by my credit management company. I responded to the
notification from NAF and showed this matter to be frivilous in
nature, and that Wolpoff & Abramson was making an unnecessary
claim against me. In July 07, the NAF ruled in favor of Wolpoff &
Abramson. What should I do to fight this decision? I do have
prove of all transactions and communications with MNBA, Wolpoff &
Abramson, and the NAF. Note: I never knowingly agreed to arbitration with Wolpoff & Abramson. I have only responded to their claims following the procedures of NAF. Please Respond ASAP
Comment by chris underwood — July 13, 2007 @ 9:57 am
Great news on the NAF front from the Appellate Division of the Orange County Superior Court in So. California. On June 28, 2007 Appellate Division VACATED a NAF arbitration award based judgment for MBNA. The court ruled that the judgment was void because MBNA had no arbitration agreement.
If MBNA files a petition to enforce a NAF arbitration award against you, fight it.
If MBNA has a judgment against you enforcing a NAF arbitration award, vacate it!
Comment by Killer Joe Ribakoff — July 21, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
In my experience with AAA, the American Arbitration Association, there is a spin on just about everything to do with the process. Hardship is a prime example. When we were filed on the first time we were supporting two houses, one we could not live in and an apartment. We were paying for testing of all kinds on our house, moving, storage expenses and legal fees. We could not afford arbitration. During the process our credit was ruined and we could not borrow the money since we had been posted for foreclosure. Some of our credit cards automatically raised their interest rates because of that one adverse credit reporting. Discover Card was the first. We were told we could pay them off or assume a ridiculous interest rate. We had never been late with a payment or a house payment until all of this happened.
We ask for hardship, as we too had read their slick brochures. We had to fill out a raft of papers and give this omnipotent agency every shed of information about our financial crisis. It was demeaning.
After I filed for hardship, they would not tell me if it had been granted. Every time I asked I received blank credit card authorizations wanting my credit card information so they could charge their costs to me. After some time they finally admitted I had qualified. They said I could pay $750.00 up front, before arbitration began and the exact same amount, win or lose that I would have paid up front, as a balloon note at the end of arbitration just as if we had never had this exercise for hardship.
When we saw they could provide an arbitrator pro bono we applied for one. The builder was not participating in the process yet AAA had us jumping though hoops. We were afraid not too comply with everything AAA told us to do since this was supposed to take the place of court. We thought it was like being in contempt if we did not do everything they said. We thought they could put us in jail or rule against us because of something we did wrong. They sent out a list of arbitrators one of them, Marsha Higbee, had three on going cases with our builder. One case had been taken back to court from AAA for a ruling because the builder’s lawyer was unhappy with her ruling during the process. It had not been ruled on so we chose her. All this was in her disclosure. We thought at least she would know what they were really like. We sent in our list on the appointed day. There was always a deadline for everything. We met every deadline. We chose Ms. Higbee. She was assigned and said she would give us one free day of arbitration, this was after our builders’ lawyers said to AAA and to us that they could dispose of us in one day. A conference call was scheduled. Then a couple of days later, the builder’s lawyers said, they did not want Ms. Higbee. They had changed their mind, now it might take three to five days and they wanted not one, but 3 arbitrators. So AAA thanked Ms.Higbee for her offer and released her.
We were sent out notices again. This time the fees were so high per hour that I told them we could not pay $475 an hour for 6 to 8 hour for 3 to 5 days and for pre and post study for what ever length of time the arbitrator chose. I told them I could not in good conscious hire someone that I could not pay because it was dishonest. AAA knew we had no money so for the first time they denied the builders’ lawyer’s request for 3 arbitrators. AAA is a “non profit” agency. They are careful if they think they are not going to get their money. So they said only one arbitrator. They knew they could probably squeeze that much more out of what was left of us.
So the builders’ lawyer, with our AAA solutions manager and myself on the phone told me I would chose or he would go to court and have an arbitrator appointed by the court, outside of AAA. He said that he had done it many times before and he could assure me it would not be free. I chose an arbitrator. Then I wrote the arbitrator and told him I could not pay him. I no longer owned the house by then. I did not pay the arbitrators fees but then neither did the builder. I was puzzled; the builders’ lawyers told me if I did not pay they could go to arbitration without us and get a ruling in abstensia. I thought that was what was going to happen.
In the AAA rules, the more affluent party can pay both of the parties fees to force the process. The builders lawyer said he was not paying my fees. So the arbitrator dismissed the case for non payment of fees by both parties.
We had gone though the process and been dismissed. So we mistakenly thought we had earned our right to a trial by jury finally and filed charges of fraud against the builder. After 8 hearings we were ordered back into arbitration. There are so many ins and outs in arbitration agencies. They do not give a direct answer they intimidate and harass and frighten you to death. This time they made us pay. And pay we did. We paid $9,300.00 up front and then $1,687.00 for post study.
What no one seems to understand about this entire process is that you pay this out stretched handed agency, this third party, and then pay to prepare to go to arbitration. You incur all the costs of a trial. Plus, AAA got their money.
#2 From a consumers perspective and someone who has lived though the process how would you change arbitration to make it fair to all parties to a dispute?
After what we went though and what I have been appalled to know after meeting and talking to not only the victims of my builder, but hundreds of others, I have seen nothing but flaws.
How can anything be upheld by the courts, if the rules of laws do not apply? How can we be taken behind closed doors and allowed to be humiliated and lied about and the evidence be ignored and this be called justice? How can it be fair when the builders already are in a contractual agreement with the arbitration company? How can it be fair when the arbitrators are dependent on the builders to chose them again so they will have a constant stream of income? How can it be fair if there is no appeal? How can it be fair when people are frightened under gag orders and cannot even talk about what happened to them? I have been to people’s houses who had repeated the mantra “we reached an amicable settlement with our builder.” If that were true why is the house still falling apart, why is the owner sick and moving out of the state, why does his dog have no hair and why is his wife crying. This is amicable?
It is not more fair or cheaper and it is not in the consumers’ best interest. We have all been sold a bill of goods. Many people just walk away from arbitration and their homes and move in with family members. Many are forced to live in deplorable conditions. The red tape and complicated procedure is something I have studied for 4 years and been a victim in arbitration twice. I have talked to people who actually came out of arbitration owing their builder. It is so unfair we feared that prospect. The arbitrator ruled that we should pay our builder’s lawyers for breach of contract for trying to sue him in court for fraud. How can the perpetrator file on the victim? This is so backwards, it is upside down. A consumer has the right for small claims to go to small claims court. We do not need to pay an arbitrator. We have paid for a judge with our taxes. There is nothing redeeming about a middle man’s cut as we seek truth and justice.
#3 In your testimony during June 12, 2007 hearing, you indicated that in Texas you can sue someone selling you an existing house. But you cannot sue someone selling you a new house, Please explain how you have come to understand this, including any research of the laws and regulations in Texas, and whether you have determined that persons in other states are similarly prohibited from suing new home builders?
In new home contracts the builders include mandatory arbitration clauses and will generally refuse to sell a home to a consumer who objects to such arbitration clauses. Moreover, builders typically select American Arbitration Association which requires very high financial burdens just to participate. In either case, the consumer will never have a true measure of justice.
With respect to homes purchased from subsequent owners, not builders- using standard TREC forms, an arbitration clause is completely optional.
In fact you can actually sue a builder in Texas, but the laws purchased by the builders from our Legislature make it so difficult and expensive that it is out of reach of all but the wealthy who have a standing relation with an attorney from the start of the transaction due to short time deadlines and intricate traps that a layman could not be expected to negotiate.
For comparison, let’s first consider what a buyer can do if there are severe problems with a house he buys from an individual. Most individual home sales involve at least one licensed real estate broker/sales person and often two. The substantial majority of licensed real estate brokers/sales people are knowledgeable, well-trained and want to do a good job for their client, be it the seller or the buyer. Even if a person sells their home without a broker/sales person, the seller must provide the buyer with a rather detailed Property Condition Disclosure promulgated by the Texas Real Estate Commission. It requires disclosure of a wide range of details with attention to past problems that have been remedied, current problems that need attention a number of specific representations. You can find the form at http://www.trec.state.tx.us/pdf/contracts/OP-H.pdf.
Most lawsuits against sellers involve allegations of misrepresentations in the Disclosure or failure to disclose material facts. The suit can be brought in the Justice of the Peace Court if for not more than $5,000; the County Civil Court at Law if for not more than $100,000; or in the District Court where there is no dollar limit on claims.
The cost is no more than any other lawsuit and a JP claim can be handled without a lawyer with reasonable success—providing that the other party doesn’t have a lawyer.
To file a suit on a builder:
1. Make a warranty claim to your builder within the applicable warranty period (1 year for workmanship/materials is what most claims fall under. More serious claims have a two year warranty and the foundation has a ten year warranty). I will use a one year warranty claim in explaining this below.
2. If they don’t respond/fix, send them a certified letter demanding repair in 30 days.
3. If they don’t respond/fix, make a claim with TRCC (Texas Residential Construction Commission) within 30 days after the conclusion of your warranty period. The cost to file the complaint is $250. (As you can see, logistically you have to start this process WELL before the end of your 1 year warranty period. If your problem doesn’t show up until close to the end of your warranty period you have a problem. The TRCC complaint form must be filled out extremely carefully. If the problem is not described with adequate precision or you can lose that item since you cannot amend your complaint.
4. TRCC “claims” that you’ll have your inspector and inspection completed within about 30 days. In reality it takes months. Remember, the inspector you get could be a builder or have no real inspection qualifications, and you have to go through a lengthy process to object and get a new inspector. However, I have met at least one TRCC inspector who was first class—but he is the only really good one I have seen.
5. If the inspector says in his report that there is a problem with any item (the report is done item by item) there is a problem then the builder can—- 1) offer to repair or 2) give you $ to repair. The builder gets to choose whether to repair or pay, not the homeowner. The builder has 15 days to make this determination after he receives the inspector’s report and you have 25 days to accept whichever alternative the builder chooses. (This is assuming no one appeals the inspectors report). If the owner rejects a reasonable offer (reasonableness is determined later), then the owner’s remedies are significantly curtailed. Should the case finally make it to trial (or arbitration), the inspector’s report has a presumption of correctness with the burden on the owner to rebut/disprove the inspector’s findings. (This is called a rebuttable presumption.)
6. Builder has 45 days to complete repairs. (Remember the same idiot who screwed it up the first time is coming in to fix his own mistakes. This is like having the doctor who left a pair of forceps inside of you during surgery have the opportunity to do the removal and repair.) The builder almost always chooses to repair it himself rather than offer a dollar sum to the owner so the owner can go hire another builder of his choice.
7. If the builder doesn’t fix the problem (to the satisfaction of the original inspector) or doesn’t offer to repair at all (or makes an unreasonable offer of repair) or give you money, only then you can sue.
8. If you DON’T do steps 1-6 then you are FOREVER BARRED from suing. If you file suit, your claim is dismissed with prejudice and there is a good chance the builder will seek sanctions against the owner and his attorney for filing a suit in bad faith. (if the statute of limitations is an issue then you can file suit and make your TRCC demand at the same time. The suit will be abated until the TRCC process is completed). Also remember that any photos. documents, expert reports, inspection reports and the like not handed over by the owner during the TRCC inspection may not be used at trial. The builder is not required to turn over his evidence.
8. BUT HERE IS THE NEXT CATCH 22. If the Purchase Contract has a mandatory arbitration clause in it, and they almost always do, you still don’t get to sue. You have to arbitrate or just go away and drop your claim. IS THE OWNER TIRED AND BROKE YET? NO? THEN COMES—
9. File your arbitration demand with the American Arbitration Association (AAA) and pay their fee, which usually starts at $1200+ or so. MOST builders include a provision that the Federal Arbitration Act applies so as to preempt any state arbitration laws that might be kinder to the owner. There are other arbitration groups, but the AAA is almost always the one the builder names in his contract. Remember, most builders are dues paying members of the AAA, but the AAA doesn’t consider this a conflict of interest.
10. Go through arbitration. That is a separate nightmare that routinely costs more than litigation. And arbitration is routinely a secret procedure and the arbitrator is free not to follow the law, as a judge would have to do, but may substitute his judgment as to “what is right.”
11. If you don’t like the arbitrator’s decision there is no right of appeal like there is in court.
12. You may have a shot at vacating the arbitrator’s decision (called an “arbitrator’s award”) if you can prove that your arbitrator failed to disclose information regarding bias (e.g.–the arbitrator has represented the builder; is his brother in law; or perhaps is the builder’s golf partner). But, you have to file you Motion to Vacate within 90 days of the award. If you don’t discover that the arbitrator didn’t disclose what he should have until after the 90 days, there is NOTHING you can do. If your arbitrator failed to follow the law there is NOTHING you can do.
13. If your arbitrator acted “fraudulently”, you can move to vacate the award. But you must do so within 90 days of discovery of the fraud. However, the cases reveal that NOTHING is fraud (not even ex parte communications—the other party talking to the arbitrator about the case without your presence or knowledge). Arbitrators are immune from suit and on a recent case from the 6th Court of Appeals in Texas, arbitrators have been given greater immunity that that of a judge. Remember, a judge can be appealed, grieved against to a state’s judicial ethics commission or, if elected, voted out of office. The AAA is also immune from suit and has greater immunity than that of a judge, even though they perform no judicial function such as exercising discretion or interpreting the law. The AAA’s only job is administrative, yet they are immune from suit for such acts. Even an arbitrator’s administrative acts are immune. However, a judge is not immune from suit for administrative acts that are not considered judicial in nature.
So, can you sue a builder? Only maybe and it is going to be expensive. But if you do get the chance, you will already have spent months and countless amounts of money. And then you start with the same costs you would have if you had been allowed to sue in the first place.
The laws in other states are often just as oppressive, although California has enacted a new law that makes arbitration much closer to fair. And a boondoggle like the TRCC appears to be something that is “only in Texas”.
In Texas an existing homeowner is required to fill out a “Seller’s Disclosure” promulgated by the state which inquires about a number of aspects of the home, its current condition and any defects. You may sue on the disclosure or get out of the transaction if it contains false statements or material omissions. By contrast when suing the original builder or anyone repairing or performing work on your home you are subject to the Residential Construction Liability Act which preempts the Texas consumer protection law (Deceptive Trade Practices Act) and any common law claims. The act purports to apply only to “defects” in construction but as the builder can rarely be shown to have absolute knowledge of the problem, fraud, misrepresentation and breach of warranty are often subsumed under the heading “defect.” The Legislature recently amended this statute so that it requires, as a prerequisite to litigation that a party must go through the newly formed residential construction commission (a state agency made up entirely of builders) before bringing any claim in state court or arbitration. In this process the state agency appoints a “third party inspector” who issues a finding about the alleged defect. If the finding is adverse to the builder, the builder can repair the defect and the existence of the defect remains confidential with the agency. If the builder does not make the appropriate repairs the agency can then decide if the inspectors finding are correct and issue a ruling with accompanying findings of fact and conclusions of law. Whatever the ruling either side may appeal the judgment of the agency to a state Court (“ or arbitrator if so agreed in the original contract”) which must generally defer to the agency and the inspector on factual matters and which has the power to reverse the application of law to facts only if no legal theory supports the finding. Technically therefore a home purchaser does have resort to an arbitrator or court for the final appeal of any finding of the state agency but must overcome the ruling and factual findings of the board as found by the “third party inspector”. As a practical matter therefore there are at least two levels of litigation through which a homeowner is required to proceed with limited opportunity to recover damages even in the face of facts which would otherwise support the award of additional damages for breach of warranty, deceptive trade practices or fraud.
Also, the National Association of Homebuilders, as set forth in their own mission statement, wants arbitration in all clauses in every state and the “right to cure” or “right to repair” in all states and there are 31 so far. The NAHB Research Center is a subsidiary of the National Association of Home Builders (NAHB). In their report titled: “Making the Quality Connection: Improving the Building Industry Insurance Situation Through Quality Assurance Programs” the Research Center lists one of their objectives as: To reform limits of liability, to limit the frequency of litigation, and reduce excessive punitive damage judgments while still providing consumer protection. Action steps recommended:
o Establish laws providing for the right to repair, or the right to cure construction defect claims in each state.
o Include binding arbitration clauses in all builder / trade contractor contracts.
o Provide written warranty that waives implied warranty laws (where allowed) in lieu of building industry adherence to strong performance standards.”
This assures one more hoop for homeowners to jump though. It is a farce in Texas. You have to pay $360 to $650 and they say they give it back so I guess you could just say the homeowner has to lend them the money. My builder was not allowed by state law to do anything to us like court or arbitration it was against the law. They did it anyway by circumventing state law and our Texas residential Construction did not do anything about it. The builder said we did not qualify so even though the state said I did, the builder proceeded with arbitration not only at the American Arbitration Association but at the Better Business Bureau too all these things they did at once to confuse and frustrate us into silence. They were expelled from the Better Business Bureau for unethical practices and shadow companies.
I am not a lawyer nor do I give legal advice but I have done nothing but this for over 4 years. Since my name pops up often on the Internet and I have been written about in national magazines, I get calls from all across this nation from people who have suffered or are suffering unbelievable harm because of bad builders and arbitration clauses. That is how I know they exist.
I have personally had conversations with: Texas, Florida, Tennessee, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Alabama, Nevada, New Jersey, these are just the latest. When people first started calling me I did not keep a record. I was just someone they could call that understood what they were talking about. I never gave advice other than to be very careful. I also told them if they could afford to pay to have the repairs done without abandoning their homes they needed to look at the road blocks ahead: its unbelievable cost, in money, time, energy and stress on their families. Then they would have a frightening choice to make. I keep in touch with many of them just because I know what they are feeling and I am so sorry I could not help them or send them somewhere that someone would or could. I always tell them to write their Representatives. Most do not feel they would matter. They are so upset. They think they are just one person and since they are ordinary people without war chests of money no one will listen. And we have seen money does talk and watched who listened.
No one seemed to hear us until now. There are so many more of us than you can imagine. My prayer is that soon someone will admit the housing bust was bought on by the greed of the boom and check on these foreclosures and how many were actually caused by arbitration and defective homes. We need a big change and I know it is going to be very difficult to meet the opposition of big business. Every day that passes more peoples homes are taken and their lives are destroyed. Most will never recover from what is done to them. But even if they do something has been taken away: their belief in this county, our laws and that we are a democratic society. We waver in our belief that tyranny has not over powered, we the people.
My father was on Pearl Harbor when it was bombed and wounded at Guadalcanal. He was one of the most patriot men I have ever known. My earliest recollections are singing “from the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli…” as we rode in the car. I was proud of his service to his country. Now we are at war in this county and the working class is losing. Give us our right to a trial by a jury. Like my father so many have given so much so we could live in a county founded on the principles of democracy. Arbitration is not a democratic process. It is promoted by big business out of pure unadulterated greed and it should be outlawed.
When I came there to speak before the congressional committee, I was awe struck. I crossed the Potomac. I drove by the Lincoln memorial. I was there at the seat of our government. Maybe I am just a naive woman from Taylorville Alabama, but I believe in this county and most of all I believe in the constitution. And I believe…we the people were granted the right to a trial by jury.
Jordan Fogal please google my name for more information
Arbitration a consumer nightmare
Comment by Jordan Fogal — August 8, 2007 @ 10:13 am
I have been getting a recorded message from W&A for months now asking me to call them. I know I am not past due on anything, and I pulled my credit report a few months ago which was perfect. I’m torn about whether I should contact these folks or not. What do you think? Am I risking anything by ignoring them? I would definitely like them to stop bothering me! Thanks–
Comment by Lisa Finch — August 26, 2007 @ 7:00 pm
Our homes are being taken from us and the builders are hiding behind the albatross of the arbitration atrocity.
Oversight Testimony
Written Testimony Submitted by Jordan Fogal To The Subcommittee on Commercial and Administrative Law “Mandatory Binding Arbitration Agreements: judiciary.house.gov/OversightTestimony.aspx?ID=9… – 154k -
Court house doors are blocked. http://www.cityviewmag.com/stories-the-case-of-the-vanishing-trial_85.html
Consumer confidence is at an all time low. See our pictures, the real reasons for our foreclosures. We are responsible citizens and these are crooks: constructing defective, substandard housing and hiding behind arbitration clauses.
http://www.myspace.com/jordanfogal.
Finally, someone does some investigative journalism
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20393984/
The Consumerist – New York,NY,USA
: We did not understand the true ramifications of arbitration, or it’s unfairness. No one who has not been caught in this snare does. …
See all stories on this topic
Comment by Jordan Fogal — September 1, 2007 @ 12:41 am
I received a letter from the NAF that Gerald E Moore had filed with them in attempts to collect a debt from me. He had recently sent me a letter of this intention to which I sent him a VoD letter in return. As of yet haven’t gotten a reply(he has 3 days left of the 30 day waiting period) I also sent the NAF a copy of this VoD letter and proof that I sent it certified mail and copy of receipt of pickup and also a letter stating that I am disputing this debt and hadn’t received vod from Mr Moore yet. Was this the right thing to do and if not what should be my next step? I really can’t afford a lawyer and any and all help and suggestions that you could give me would be greatly appreciated.
Comment by Marge Arnett — October 1, 2007 @ 11:24 am
Hi Marge Here’s a site that Bud just started.
http://arbitrationjustice.com/NAF.html
It tells you a little more about who’s who in this shell game.
Also, you might want to direct your question to the good people over at NACA. They are better players, on your side, in this game and can tell you the rules better than I can.
http://www.naca.net/
Basically these jerks don’t believe in following the law, a validation is to much trouble so they go on without it. Call NACA and see what’s your best bet. In Iowa, I called them and they spoke with me for free. Don’t know your state or how they are. Good luck.
Comment by Bill — October 2, 2007 @ 11:04 am
Thank you Bill for your help. I wrote to the NACA and they told me to look for a lawyer on their site, and, there wasn’t any in my area…anyways, I really can’t afford one at this time. I have read so much “stuff” on all this that I am getting quite overwhelmed. All I know is that Mr. Gerald E. Moore is one of the worst-and, I refuse to deal with him. I did find a letter for dismissal of arbitration that I wrote to both Mr. Moore and the National Arbitration Forum-and, plan to send, although, I’m not sure if that’s the right thing to do or not. Plus I will send another validation of debt letter to Mr. Moore-in hopes it will be ammunition for future use if I need it. Did you have to deal with Moore? Just wondered if you experienced the same nightmare that I’m going thru. Again, thank you so much for your help-appreciate it more than you know.
Comment by Marge Arnett — October 3, 2007 @ 5:28 pm
Hi Marge. When I spoke with a NACA lawyer, in Iowa, we spoke for over 30 minutes and he didn’t charge me. They did tell me that if they, Wolpoff and Abramson, takes me to court, in Iowa, to let them know, they would help then.
Since I am not a lawyer nor a para legal, I cannot give you legal advise, but would recommend that you contact one on the NACA site. They may not be close to where you live, but they know this game really well and can help. Try to speak with one on the phone.
Send that letter, refuse to go to arbitration, and send it certified and return receipt request. Keep copies of all paperwork. If they get an award, they still have to take you to court, in your county. Then show the court that you refused their findings and are still waiting for validation of this debt.
I haven’t been to arbitration yet, but spoke with my bank and since the only funds that goes in that account is protected from creditors, they would not release any funds from the account without a court order from our county.
http://www.peoples-law.org/consumer/bankruptcy/judgment%20proof.htm
Did you review the report on http://www.citizen.org, that Bud posted? Long, but good reading. It has some really good information in it. The NAF is a joke. Keep sending them refusals to arbitrate and if they take you to court, you show the judge.
I would review this page,
http://www.pennlawyer.com/fdcpaprint.htm#PAR&D
and just keep records. Send them a cease and desist letter, bud has a good one and tell them to put everything in writing.
Good luck
Comment by Bill — October 6, 2007 @ 11:46 am
Marge, I left a commenet with some links, once the links are approved, it will be posted.
Comment by Bill — October 6, 2007 @ 7:17 pm
Bill-thank you once again for writing back and sending me all those very informative websites. I did send the letter of refusal for arbitration certified mail-sent to both Gerald E Moore and the National Arbitration Board. Have not received confirmation of delivery yet. But, did receive a letter from the National Arbitration Board today stating that they were in receipt of a Stay Notice filed by the Claimant and that the matter was now stayed. It also states that the Respondent may end this Stay by filing with the Forum and serving on all Parites a written objection in accord with the Code of Procedures within 15 days. Now I am totally confused as to what to do-don’t know if you can shed any light on what is my next move or not. But, if you can would appreciate your imput. Thanks again-you have been such a help and blessing to me.
Comment by Marge Arnett — October 9, 2007 @ 9:58 am
Marge, are we having fun yet?? ha haha I haven’t a clue. I believe Wolpoff and Abramson, my Gerald Moore, will be doing that to me pretty soon. But so far nothing. my mess started, this time, around Jul Aug time period. Sent a validation letter 30 days ago and might send them another one, nothing so far.
The only thing I can tell you is get a hold of someone at NACA. Those guys know this game and, in my opinion, are your best bet. That report bud posted has a lot of good information in it and I am writing some of it down, so if these guys W&A, start something, I can send them a copy. You should check out that web site and send a copy to your congressman. Help get new laws passed.
Good luck and hang in there.
Comment by Bill — October 9, 2007 @ 4:04 pm
Marge, the Stay is typically a stall tactic. They may at any point lift the Stay and proceed, usually with a “document hearing” where they rubberstamp whatever the Claimant sticks in front of them. There are different schools of thought on how to deal with the Stay.
One, you can write back to both CA’s (I consider the NAF to be a debt collector) and demand immediate DISMISSAL of this invalid arbitration proceeding. Or send another Refusal.
Two, you can file complaints with the FTC and state regulators as appropriate, citing violations of the FDCPA and other statutes. Or you can file complaints after they ignore your demand for DISMISSAL.
Three, you can ignore it all, taking the point of view that you have REFUSED, and then challenge them in court when they try to confirm the award. (I personally don’t like this approach because I’d rather have more of a papertrail to take to court.)
Look for every possible way to prove to a real court that there never was an arbitration agreement in the first place, that what the NAF and the CA are doing is fraudulent extortion, in violation of the Deceptive Trade Practices Act, violation of the FDCPA, etc. Also look for your state’s laws about arbitration proceedings, what they must do to confirm an award, and what you may do to oppose it. This info is probably in the Courts & Proceedings section of your statutes – wherever you can find the Statute of Limitations, for example.
The more you can gear up for war on this, the better. They’re sneaky and not interested in justice, the law, or anything besides getting money out of you whether they should or not. Learn all you can, and fight smart
Comment by impishredhead — October 10, 2007 @ 10:27 am
Hi impishredhead-thank you for all that helpful information, it has helped me to make a decision as to my next move. I didn’t think this “stay” was to my benefit. I have sent out to the NAF, and, Mr. Moore a second letter for refusal of arbitration-and-also sent them both a letter stating that I wanted this arbitration dismissed. As of yet, I’m still waiting for the green cards from my first letter of refusal that I sent to both but, thought I should send out this other two right away. I am keeping a copy of each and everything that I do in case I need it in the future. As for learning-(smile)-well, I sure am learning a lot..sometimes, to much to digest. But, am trying very hard to do all I can to fight this. Again, thank you so very much for your help-it was greatly appreciated.
Comment by Marge Arnett — October 11, 2007 @ 10:26 am
Bill-good luck with everything that you do. I have been reading about Wolpoff & Abramson-they sound as bad as Mr. Moore. I hope that it doesn’t go as far as arbitration but, if it does, I wish you much luck and hope that all goes your way. I have sent out a letter demanding dismissal for mine-and, now it’s a waiting game.
If there’s anything that I can possible do to help you in the future just let me know. Will be here to help in any way that I possibly can. Good luck to you. Thanks for all your helpful suggestions.
Comment by Marge Arnett — October 11, 2007 @ 2:47 pm
Thanks Marge. I wrote bud and since W & A haven’t sent me anything yet about arbitration and I’m still waiting for validation, he told me to just wait and see. When I do get something, will inform him and follow what he says at that time.
Was reading what impishredhead wrote and that’s really good information there. I have to agree with it. Since my case hasn’t gotten that far, will wait until I get something from them or the NAF. Iowa has their courts on line so I can watch the courts for anything with my name on it. Usually it takes a couple of weeks from posting on line to a court date, so I’m on top of that.
Thanks again Marge for your words. I hope that your case goes away too.
Impishredhead, thanks for your advise too. Will keep you both posted. Hope you do the same.
Good Luck
Comment by Bill — October 11, 2007 @ 7:34 pm
It was an arbitration threat by W&A that motivated me to learn about all of this stuff. The threat of arbitration bothered me much more than the threats about a regular lawsuit. W&A backed off when I disputed and threatened to take them to court for some violations. Actually they tossed me over to Riddle & Associates, who quickly decided they didn’t like the odds and dropped the whole thing.
I think the key was that I learned the laws and used them to mount an effective fight. My responses weren’t nasty, and certainly weren’t bluffs. Trying to out-nasty a nasty debt collector is like trying to head-butt a bull. Your head is better used in other ways
In the years since, I’ve helped several others get arbitration proceedings dismissed. But I’ve noticed a definite change in the NAF’s tactics in the past 18 months or so. Used to be, if they issued a stay and you continued to fight, they’d generally dismiss rather than risk ending up in court. But lately I’ve seen a trend towards issuing a stay, then suddenly lifting it weeks or months later and proceeding rapidly to their baloney “document hearing” and promptly issuing an “award” for the CA.
It doesn’t seem to matter what you do or don’t do with these scumbags. They’re just going to issue that ridiculous “award” – because THAT’S WHAT THEY GET PAID TO DO! Then it’s up to the CA to take the “arbitration award” to your local court to have it confirmed and entered as a judgment against you. This is a critical place to fight them.
And this is why I would rather have a good solid papertrail of having refused and objected at every step. I’d rather go into court to oppose the award and be able to show the judge that the arbitrator clearly IGNORED all refusals, objections, and every bit of important evidence on MY side. For example, in a recent case I helped with, the CA submitted obviously FAKE documents. There were some remarkable errors on those documents. The Respondent challenged everything about them in a very detailed complaint letter to the NAF, pointing out the obvious FRAUD that was being perpetrated by the CA with those faked up documents. He also raised hearsay, statute of limitations and other critical objections to the “evidence” (which was all garbage that would have been tossed by any decent judge). In a normal court proceeding he surely would have won a dismissal…
Not with the NAF, though. Nope, those twits completely ignored all that and issued an “award” based on a “document hearing” regardless of all that. I strongly suspect that the NAF may not even have sent the Respondent’s letters to the arbitrator. If they did, and he ignored the information in the Respondent’s documents, the arbitrator has trouble on the way. Meanwhile, if NAF did NOT send Respondent’s documents to the arbitrator, THEY could be liable for the consequences.
Either way, Respondent now has a good case to show a REAL COURT that NAF, their hired-hand arbitrator, and the CA, never intended to conduct a true arbitration proceeding in the first place, and violated numerous state and federal statutes in the process, should they attempt to confirm this “arbitration award” via the court. So far they haven’t tried it. The CA “attorney” tried to collect on the award via letter, but the consumer disputed the whole thing yet again using state law, and that’s where it stands at the moment. If the CA takes him to court, he’s got a nice fat surprise for them.
Comment by impishredhead — October 12, 2007 @ 11:59 am
Impishredhead-well, I received a letter today from Mr. Moore that was suppose to be a letter of validation. Or, what they said was in accordance with 15usc 1692g. It lists the original creditors name(Direct Merchants)/account being purchased my Worldwide Asset purchasing on October 3 2005/their address/the date the account was opened and charged off/the amount/date of last payment and how much that payment was. They also stated in a letter that collection activity will now continue on this account. Now, I don’t know what to do. I also received in a separate envelope a letter dated the same date saying:due to the recent response filed by me we would like to request an indefinite stay in the above referenced matter. This stay will permit us to obtain documentation which should assist in resolving the dispute in this matter. This was sent to the NAF. As stated in previous letter that I wrote to you on here- I have already sent Mr. Moore and the NAF my second letter of refusal to arbitrate and a letter asking for dismissal of arbitration(they must’ve crossed in the mail) In Mr. Moores’ validation letter he didn’t send all that I asked for like:what the money was owed for and explain and show me how you calculated what you say I owe/provide me with verification of any judgement if applicable/show me that your licensed to collect in my state and provide me with your license numbers and registered agent. Does he, by law, have to provide me with all this information? And, since I already sent letters to Naf and him refusing arbitration the second time and asking for it to be dismissed-what should be my next move. I feel like I should do something, not just sit and wait, and I just don’t know what to do-so, once again, looking to you for some imput-any and all would be appreciated more than you would know. Thanks.
Comment by Marge Arnett — October 12, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Marge, I would contest that as a mere REPHRASING of their claim rather than being PROOF of their claim. Validation is supposed to be PROOF of the claim, obtained from the original creditor and forwarded to the consumer. Did they send you documents actually obtained from the original creditor properly identifying the account and establishing the amount of the debt they’re trying to collect? Or did they just send you something they themselves created? That’s the difference.
FDCPA – http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpa/fdcpact.htm – your new best friend.
Also consider this FTC Opinion Letter: http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpa/letters/wollman.htm
Exactly what the CA has to provide “by law” varies from state to state, and sometimes even from judge to judge. It’s not as simple as saying, “They have to produce a contract with your signature.” In reality, they have to produce whatever will convince THE JUDGE that you owe the debt. Ultimately, if the CA provides documentation to prove that you are the person responsible for the account, documents that prove the chain of title and that the CA has the legal standing to collect on the account, the exact amount of the outstanding debt they claim you owe, and that the amount has been arrived at in compliance with the contract that created the debt as well as all applicable laws, that would be validation. It can also depend on your state law – some states have pretty solid requirements and others don’t. You need to research your state.
I’d strongly advise getting to a more active site for additional help and information. There are a variety of consumer help forums out there you could try, and you’re bound to find one or more that suit you. I recommend http://www.creditinforesource.com, http://www.infinitecredit.com, http://www.kittycredit.com, or http://www.creditboards.com. Each has its own unique atmosphere and variety of resources. There is a LOT of info out there, and some really experienced people who’ve “been there done that” on just about everything.
Comment by impishredhead — October 12, 2007 @ 3:08 pm
Impishredhead, my hats off to you. For dealing with these suckers AND putting them in their place. They have done nothing so far except write me a letter about an alleged debt from Discover and called me, saying there were COMCAST CABLE, on my caller ID, (which is in violation with FCC Regs) have that on my computer with pictures of the caller ID. The calls stopped, I requested validation and haven’t heard anything back. Spoke with NACA in Iowa and they believe that there are violations with their letter and with their calls, but told me to just wait and see. If they send me anything more, let them know.
Since they have not sent me anything about arbitration, just a letter, unsigned, not reviewed by their lawyer, the legal advise I got was to wait until they do something else.
W & A are bad people and I agree with you. I will fight them tooth and nail. I truly believe that because of you, the report from Public Citizen, Bud Hibbs and this site, they are now picking who to go after.
As Bud stated on his website that NAF is falling apart now that more and more consumers are aware of their actions. Iowa has arbitration laws which the courts here will review prior to granting any judgments. Which NAF aren’t following.
Thanks for your advise again impishredhead. Will keep you posted.
Comment by Bill — October 12, 2007 @ 8:40 pm
impishredhead-I am going to write Mr. Moore tomorrow and tell him that what he sent me was far from a validation. It was type written-a plain piece of paper-with a signature of someone..all of which I could’ve done and sent to myself. I’ve been trying to look up the laws in my state(New York)-but, so far, what I find..well, is hard to understand as far as what is going on. I’m not sure as to if I should send a copy of the validation letter that Mr. Moore sent to me to the NAF and also include a copy of my letter saying I reject his validation-do you think this would be a good idea. I’m really sorry to keep bothering you but, you are so knowledgeable in all this…and, I’m just real confused. Again, thank you for you imput….it really helps in what seems like a never ending state of confusion and fear for me.
Comment by Marge Arnett — October 14, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
Marge, if the CA cc’d the NAF with that junk, then I’d cc the NAF with my dispute of the junk. Otherwise I’d just dispute right back to the CA, and save it up for court. And please post for help in the Help, Advice section rather than here. This thread has gone way off topic
Comment by impishredhead — October 15, 2007 @ 11:48 am
I still have not gotten any answers of my questions from this wedsite. Why are we writting them?
Comment by Terry Borlace — October 18, 2007 @ 8:07 pm
Terry, for one thing, this is the wrong area for asking questions, so it’s less likely that someone will see and answer your posts here. You may get more response in the Help, Advice section. But no matter where you post, whether anyone answers will depend on the availability of individuals with the knowledge and experience to respond. Not everyone is able to answer every question, and not everyone can be here all the time. Try running a keyword search, on “arbitration” or “NAF” for example, in the Help, Advice area and you’ll find quite a few posts that might be helpful for you.
Comment by impishredhead — October 18, 2007 @ 9:08 pm
Impishredhead-first of all I tried going to the help, advice site and it kept bringing me back here so will post here. I have a question for you: I received a letter today from the NAF which states they had received my correspondence dated Oct. 11th-which was a request for dismissal. It referred to rule 41g of the code of procedure which states If a request for an involuntary dismissal is the only request for a dispositive order, that request maybe determined at the document or particpatory hearing.
Then it goes on to say that all documents received by the respondent will be forwarded to the arbitrator for review and consideration at the document hearing. And, that all future correspondence received from the parties regarding this matter will also be forwarded to the arbitrator for review at the document hearing.
Well, I am totally confused as to what this means….just wondering if you could shed some light on what they are trying to say.
Also, if that stay that they had on this if lifted do they have to write and tell me so?
Thanks once again for all your help. Marge
Comment by marge arnett — October 20, 2007 @ 12:18 pm
marge…i got the same letter too. anything happen on your side yet?
Comment by J Aias — November 10, 2007 @ 2:55 pm
Please – do not pay any arbitration awards!! You need to contact your attorney general. Any paid award will never be reported as paid because the debt has been charged-off and sold – this is all tied into complicated securitized trusts (and credit default insurance swaps).
Attorneys across the country are having difficulty comprehending these trusts and important legal concepts of real party in interest in court of law. Subprime mortgage mess is connecteed to bogus debt collection.
I tried to get help over two years ago – no one would help me. Much of subprime mess could have been avoided (and billions of dollars in writeoffs – which affects all) had consumer advocates paid attention to my case and supported us with amicus (friend of court) briefs. Budd- you could have been a frontrunner for huge US financial problems that have now surfaced. Our case highlighted the far more complicated issues (other than simple FDCPA and FCRA violations, and arbitration due process) that has been primary focus of consumer advocacy groups. I know you are not an attorney – but the information I provided to you – a long time ago – was explosive.
What happened?? Do not let anyone pay these arbitration awards. “Give Me Back My Rights” is great group but not fully understanding of the law. They look for simple class actions – uncomplicated by technical financial engineering and law.
I am in second arbitration with the NAF. My case has been so manipulated by courts and parties (I should not be in second arbitration), that the NAF does not know what to do me!! Where have the consumer advocates been? They are aware of my case – it the most egregious one out there. I have been told that my case is “too complicated” by consumer advocacy groups – What does that say to you??
Our knowledge of what has occured in financial markets, courts of law, Department of Justice, and in arbitration is now extensive.
Public Citizen and Consumer Advocates MUST step up to plate. Need your support to pressure these groups TO HELP you. You may read my story (not fully currently updated) at yahoo.com search – “The Eleanor Schiano Story”.
Would like to initiate Petition to NEW US Attorney General. Can we count on Budd’s help???
Elle in NJ
Comment by eleanor schiano — November 11, 2007 @ 6:57 pm
Boy there is a lot of stuff on Wolpoff & Abramson–I wish I had found this site 2-3 months ago. I hope someone can help…
It goes like this, hubby and I bought a house in May, 07. We got a great rate because we HAD great credit (over 700 scores). Then in June, 07 hubby got laid off and in July, 07 I got laid off. We got separation packages for about 3 months (hubby’s was a little longer).
Since we live in a major metro area with a VERY high unemployment rate, I knew it would probably take a MINIMUM of 6 months for each of us to find a job. So I signed up with a debt management place who actually recommended we go for debt settlement. Long story short, they stunk, so I fired them and negotiated settlements with 5 out of my 6 unsecured creditors. They were decent settlement arrangements–I settled at 55% to 75% of the totals. But we cashed in retirement money to pay them. We also had to use that money to finish necessary repairs on the new house and to live off of after the separation pay ran out (unemployment would just barely let us pay for our house and car–forget about groceries and utilities!)
Anyway, the one creditor who wouldn’t even DISCUSS settlement with us was MBNA. In fact, before we even hit 60 days late (before I even fired the Debt Management place)–MBNA handed off the account to Wolpoff & Abramson who immediately sued us through the National Arbitration Forum.
Despite the fact that I sent proof of hardship information to both the NAF and W&A–which included proof of separation, unemployment determinations and information from my son’s doctors proving his rare illness and our medical expenses (with medical insurance ending in a few weeks from the date of the letter!)…in spite of all of that– the NAF awarded W&A an amount significantly over the orginal debt (which was already high).
While this was all going on, I was in regular contact with W&A. I felt obligated to negotiate with them, mostly because I was afraid of what would happen if I didn’t. We actually worked out a verbal settlement which reduced the total debt amount but included stiff monthly payments. I even sent them a good faith payment of $500. I figured I had to give them as much as I could, even if it meant scrounging until our finances returned to normal. I had heard they could get a lien on my house or garnish future wages or seize bank accounts. And I wanted to avoid all of that unpleasantness.
At any rate, after a verbal settlement was negotiated, W&A was supposed to fax AND mail a written version of the agreement for me to sign. Well, 2 weeks went by and no written agreement. Then when they finally faxed something (no original in the mail), it wasn’t at all what was agreed upon! So I didn’t sign it! I called and told them that the written agreement wasn’t correct, but no one has ever bothered to call me back regarding that issue.
HOWEVER, about a month later–the Friday after Christmas, one of their paralegals called me at 4 pm EST asking that I pay them $500 for this month “per the agreement” I made with them! When I told her I didn’t have it and that the agreement was never finalized, she said that I had to pay at LEAST $388 before the end of the day (6 pm EST – in 2 hours) or they would mark the account as a “charge off” and sue me again to get a “lien on my house” and a “permanent mark” would be put on my credit report and I would be stuck with it forever and never able to get credit again. Further, she said, once the lien was on my house, I would “never be able to sell it or refinance it” (imagine being *stuck* in a house!). She asked me if I could use another credit card or borrow the money so I could pay her today–otherwise all this bad stuff would start on Monday!
What I found interesting was that the second amount she asked for ($388) was the exact net amount of my weekly unemployment check (they had all that info from the proof of hardship that I sent in). How friggin EVIL is that??
Anyway, after she went on like that it all started to sound a little fishy, so I told her I’d see what I could do and hung up with her. Then I immediately contacted an attorney (I was lucky to find someone at nearly 5 pm during Christmas week!) who told me that she was “exaggerating” (to say the least).
I didn’t send them any money that day (I didn’t have any to send). That following Monday–the whole week, in fact–nothing happened. Then I got an automated call on a Sunday night requesting that I call their offices. So I did–and no one was working on Sunday. Surprise, Surprise! On Monday I called them, they wanted money. I didn’t have it. Another week later (last week) I had some money and called in a payment of $250.
I want to know–should I have paid them? The original debt from MBNA was valid–though it was about 5-6K less. So I felt obligated–plus I was scared. I’m back to work now, but hubby is not. The debt is only in my name, and if my wages are garnished, we will really suffer.
They won with NAF, but I haven’t disputed it. Should I? It hasn’t been 60 days, I don’t think. I am going to check. What should I say? What should be my next step?
My husband and I are educated, responsible people who had excellent credit for years. Now due to hardship caused by the loss of our jobs, we’ve been made out to be deadbeats! But only by MBNA and Wolpoff & Abramson!
I feel obligated to pay my debts, but MBNA did not play fair from the start. When I took out the bill consolidation loan with them it was to pay off high interest rate credit lines that we had charged up to fix up a lemon of a house we were living in so we could sell it (that’s another horror story!)–we took a loss on that house and consolidated the debt and became renters for three years so that we could pay our debts and save up for another house. MBNA told us they would give us 12% on the loan, and then lower the rate after a year of payments. They never did lower it. Every time I called, they would say I “didn’t qualify at this time.” But they wouldn’t tell me why. I had great credit–it didn’t make sense. They also kept changing the terms of the agreement! Then when we experienced hardship, they coudln’t WAIT to try to destroy us! Now I find myself thinking, why SHOULD I pay the full amount to such evil people? I’m the only one in this situation trying to do the right thing and its getting me nowhere!
What can I do? I can’t afford to pay them and support our family of 3! Hubby is still looking for work, and even with my new job, we’re only at about 2/3 of the minimum we need to meet our BASIC bills like mortgate, 1 car, utilities, insurance, and food! I don’t even live in some rich suburb! It’s lower middle income. I have no more retirement any more, no stocks, no savings, my house has no equity yet… And we can’t file bankruptcy because A) I’m back to work and make 2-3K over the cut-off for a family of 3 and B) we cashed in our 401(k)s a few months ago so we could get by.
Anyone got any ideas??
Comment by LeeJ — January 15, 2008 @ 5:01 pm
Response to 27,
Validation of a debt is not a billing statement. A billing statement is “only” ‘evidence’ of a debt, it does not prove you are the person “liable”. You need to know and understand this legal term.
Now, think, what would validate this debt? How about a ‘contract’. How about charge tickets with your signature? Even a charge ticket with your signature is only evidence of a debt, is it not?
All my cases, and I have won them all, the courts have said that the burden of proof is that of the Bank. So, ‘think’. What evidence can they produce to validate the debt?
In another one of my cases here in Arkansas, the attorney debt collector, produced 12 billing statements for 2007. The account was charged off in October of 2005. We found that the Attorney Debt Collector manipulated the billing statement. You have to know what you are looking for to catch this fraud upon you by the attorney and the credit card bank.
John Dunn
Success Dynamics
Comment by John Dunn — January 16, 2008 @ 9:46 am
Excellent Blog!Very well designed and focused.
Comment by Robert Eckert — January 27, 2008 @ 2:43 pm
I recently received a certified letter that I owe MBNA back fees on a loan. I don’t dispute this but I have made payments on the loan since the date the law firm states. They also sent info. that they are turning this over to the National Arbitration Forum. I sent certified letters to both the law firm & NAF disputing the comments made by the law firm. For one, they claim they had sent me 2 letters of intent to collect but I have only received the one which I signed for. I have also offered to pay the debt in payments as I cannot pay it in full. I told them there is no need for arbitration. The arbitration forum signed that they received my letter & asked me to fill out a form showing I have contacted the law firm. What happens next? Can I refuse the arbitration w/o penalties? MBNA has changed it’s name & I don’t know who to send payments to or if it’s too late to try & send payments anymore anyway. I also requested from the law firm that they provide me with dates I paid on the MBNA account. Are these ever written off as unpaid debts? What are the repercussions that can be taken against you for non-payment? I want & intend to pay the debt be must have reasonable payment options. What do I do next? Help! Thanks!
Comment by Carol — February 3, 2008 @ 11:19 am
I have to file a “Request” to the NAF within the next week. After reading some of the great comments on here, I am ready to fight the NAF and the debt collector who is after me. I offered to pay a monthly payment, but the company refused demanding payment now. The document they have provided to me has hardly any information and the wrong account # on it (I guess my account # has changed over the years, so it is possible that it was mine at one time). I answered the first response but was told that it was insufficient because I did not submit proof of service. They said they would send me a second notice. After a few weeks, I got nervice and contacted them, asking when I should expect the second notice. They then sent me a geberic letter saying that I had responded and a scheduling notice. It is very generic to, but it does instruct that I send any “Request” by the end of February. First, does the request mean my defense, or can I request that the debtor send me my original contract? I have just contacted two NACA attorneys who I hope have enough time to do something. Any suggestions?
Thanks!
Comment by space55 — February 19, 2008 @ 5:38 pm
To LeeJ.
Do not pay anything to W & A – your debt is already charged-off. My story is similar to yours (sorry about your troubles – I have been there!!) Read my story “The Eleanor Schiano Story”, although story does not end there.
Elle
Comment by elle — February 28, 2008 @ 10:11 am
I entered into arbitration with the NAF myself. My case was good enough to be ordered dismissed with prejudice. Against the rules of the NAF and the contract the order was vacated and replaced with an order of dismissed with out prejudice. That is not fair or impartial.
Comment by Mike — March 4, 2008 @ 12:49 am
#42 Mike, How did you win with them and what all did you do? We are just getting started with them and I am not going to roll over and take this!
Anyone else, I need some detailed steps to take.
Thanks!
Comment by jenni — May 23, 2008 @ 2:43 pm
People facing the arbitration battle should study the articles posted here: http://creditinforesource.com/articles.html
Comment by impishredhead — May 23, 2008 @ 7:08 pm
I was a victim of arbitration fraud. I have been a resident of Wyoming since 2000, but in 2005, NCO Portfolio Management, Inc. got the NAF to issue a default arbitration award against me in Colorado for more than $20k. By the time I found out about it, it was $26k. I was never served, either for the arbitration, or the judgment. In fact, they were using the US mail to “serve” me at addresses that were VACANT at the time of the alleged service. (I got this from Public Records. One address had been foreclosed on and was bank owned. The other one was in an unfinished condominium development that had been declared uninhabitable by the City.
I found out the NCO was not licensed as a collection agency in Colorado and had not registered as a foreign corporation with the Colorado Secretary of State. Furthermore, I found dozens of Transcripts of Judgment in Jefferson County alone entered before NCO finally got its collection agency license. That had to be the tip of the iceberg, since NCO wouldn’t have paid to file a Transcript unless the alleged debtor owned real estate in the county.
How could a judge grant a judgment when there is no Summons or Return of Service in the file? NCO alleged they sent me a copy of the Petition by “US Mail” to that uninhabitable condominium complex. They didn’t even allege FIRST CLASS mail! I have found a Colorado statute that requires personal service to confirm an arbitration award.
C.R.S. §13-22-205 Application for Judicial Relief
1) Except as otherwise provided in section 13-22-228, an application for judicial relief under this part 2 must be made by motion to the court and heard in the manner provided by law or court rule for making and hearing motions.
(2) Unless a civil action involving the agreement to arbitrate is pending, notice of an initial motion to the court under this part 2 must be served in the manner provided by law for the service of a summons in a civil action.
Comment by Laura Kent — June 1, 2008 @ 7:57 am
I am currently embroiled in a lawsuit with Wolpoff & Abramson over a Barclays Bank account. My first contact with them was as a “debt collector” from then on they became “attorneys”.??? Took me to arbitration over my several objections. NAF found against me. I went to court to have the case dismissed. Also sent W&A list of documents I wanted to see the originals and listed a place to meet and gave them 30 days. The wrote the court and requested an additional 90 days as they could not get the documents together before then, if at all. I countered with a second request to the court asked again for dismissal. Attached 12 documents in which I requested information, none of which had been provided to date. (over a 2 year period of time) Mentioned I did not want to get the Court into this, however, I had no luck getting the info on my own and asked for dismissal. Now waiting for the answer to that – either from W&A or the court.
Janet Shore
Comment by Jan Shore — June 14, 2008 @ 3:46 pm
This NAF arbitration scam has got to stop. People need to get organized and learn what to do. Please come to the forum at http://arbitrationjustice.com/index.php
Comment by impishredhead — June 16, 2008 @ 7:43 pm
I just received a letter from the NAF 3 pages long, basically letting me know that the “Arbitrator ISSUES An Award in favor of the Claimant, for a total amount of $2,751.53.
I never was even notified that a claim was filled against me, and I didn’t even know what “Arbitration” meant until now!! Most of the information that I have found online, is what to do BEFORE the actual Arbitration takes place. It looks like this is a DONE deal already, and this is the first I have heard of it. The letter was delivered regular mail, I did not need to sign for it. I would think if this was as “official” as it looks I would have been required to sigh for it!
The weird thing is that I recieved the letter today (August 4th) and last Thursday (July 31st), My husband got a call from the County Constable regarding a “legal matter”. They left a message for him at work. My husband called them on Friday Morning, and they requested our address, so they would not have to “serve” him at work.
We still have not gotten served and now got this letter from NAF.
I am thinking that these two incidents are related and that the NAF got a judgment against us already?? Is this possible? Does this mean we can take no action now that this process seems to be complete on their end (NAF)?
I am not sure what to expect when we get “served”. Do we get a chance to object at all? I am wondering if now the NAF can get to our bank account now, or do I have time to think of a plan.
When we get served, will that basically be to let us know that our bank accounts have been seized (or something like that).
If anyone has had this happen to them, please respond on what happened. I am not even sure where to go for help now. Can we file bankruptcy and stop wage garnishment or bank seizing. We have no assets to take from us, just wages. I am concerned that if we deposit my husbands pay check in the bank tomorrow, that it could be seized!
Thank you,
Chris
Comment by Chris — August 4, 2008 @ 6:01 pm
Chris, the usual course these things take is:
1) The NAF issues an “award” against you
2) The Claimant (collection agency, creditor, whoever gets the award issued to them) then files in court to have the “award” confirmed into an actual JUDGMENT, which can then be acted upon according to applicable state law.
3) You have to decide whether (and how) to OPPOSE confirmation of the award. Your options depend on the details of the case itself, the arbitration agreement (or LACK of arbitration agreement) as well as applicable state law and controlling case law.
GET A LAWYER IF YOU CAN. Try http://www.naca.net – search for attorneys in your area with experience or interest in handling debt collection, binding mandatory arbitration, or FDCPA cases. (You may not have an FDCPA case, but if lawyers are scarce then maybe one with FDCPA experience will at least have some sense of the issues you need to address right now.)
You also might want to visit the Arbitration Justice forum – http://arbitrationjustice.com/index.php. There are some discussions over there that might help you get some additional ideas of how to proceed.
Comment by impishredhead — August 5, 2008 @ 10:40 am
Thank you for the information, I will visit that website and learn more, as well as look into getting a lawyer.
Comment by Chris — August 5, 2008 @ 11:54 am